Curse

MegaVolti · Dec 24, 2008, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

Just out of interest, has anyone actually tried running twin heats + MB and PvE/utility in HM in conjunction with a sabs style team????

I have whilst completing both Legendary Vanquisher and Guardian. With very few exceptions e.g. Destroyer heavy areas, it works fine. I suggest some of you read Cataphract's posts and absorb what's being said rather than dismissing fire builds in HM because they don't conform to the "orthodox" view of skill selection.

Selfquote FTW:

Quote:

Well, everything "works" in HM. Even auto-attacking warriors will somehow get the job done ... it just takes a few hours. So yes, fire magic "works". It still is far inferior to most other sources of damage.

Especially when bringing a sabway hero team your fire build will of cause "work". PvE isn't that hard after all. Still, it is far less effective then other builds (meaning: you could have been faster).

Mouse at Large · Dec 25, 2008, 01:14 AM // 01:14

*Sigh*

Score 1 to the Big Brains and the Guardians of Orthodoxy.

It's a game - I had fun, I ran fire. It's obvious now that what I thought was enjoyable was in fact a horrible grind. I will take my chastisement and retreat to a small and obscure corner of cyberspace to contemplate my inadequacies.

The scales have fallen from my eyes and I am now one of the illuminati.

Thank you, and may your enlightenment shine like a thousand suns on the benighted.

Tyla · Dec 25, 2008, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Fun is subjective, efficiency is not. This is a thread about efficiency, not sharing what method is most fun to someone.

ammad2006 · Dec 26, 2008, 02:01 AM // 02:01

First of all, I would like to post and awesome Ele HM build that offers great utility (off of PvX of course

)

[build prof=E/Mo energy=12+1+1 prot=12 air=3+1][Glyph of Swiftness][Ether Renewal][Aegis][Guardian][Spirit Bond][Protective Spirit][Reversal of Fortune][Life Bond][/build]

I believe Searing Flames is overated. In NM Triple Heat + Freezes can easily do more damage. Or, you could be awesome and run [Mind Blast]. But [Searing Flames] does still pwn.

In NM, MS DB looks good on paper. But, like it was stated before, most enimies are usually dead before ur 2nd mobius. Especialy with h/h cuz those little rays of sunshine go for the same target as you.

In HM, elemetalists can do damage, but serve better as utility. Leave the nuking to Necros cuz of their armor ignoring [Spiteful Spirit] [defile enchantments] and of cours [mark of pain] + [animate bone minions].

Assasins in HM. WHose ever heard of that?

Seriously i dont really know what assasins can do in hm.

NOw, for the record i have both an assasin and an ele, and i find both to be enjoyable.

/flameshield

ammad2006 · Dec 26, 2008, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Oh yeah
Here is a TEST HM build that i would like feedback on :P
Ive been running renewal, and would like to try earth

Stats
Earth 11+1+1
Air 11+1
Energy Storage 8+1

[Thunderclap][Churning Earth][ward against melee][ward against elements][Glyph of swiftness][Earth Attunement][Eruption][Shock Arrow]

MegaVolti · Dec 26, 2008, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by ammad2006

Oh yeah
Here is a TEST HM build that i would like feedback on :P
Ive been running renewal, and would like to try earth

Stats
Earth 11+1+1
Air 11+1
Energy Storage 8+1

[Thunderclap][Churning Earth][ward against melee][ward against elements][Glyph of swiftness][Earth Attunement][Eruption][Shock Arrow]

Looks good, but I'd make a few changes:
[glyph of swiftness] -> [glyph of lesser energy]
[thunderclap] -> [technobabble]
[shock arrow] -> [unsteady ground]

Chthon · Dec 27, 2008, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ammad2006

When you post, please read the thread first. Sometimes you learn stuff that obviates the need to post.

daze · Dec 28, 2008, 07:50 AM // 07:50

ya, i agree with mega.
So far the best use of ele in HM when it comes to the highest mix of damage and utility is [earth [email protected]][unsteady [email protected]][ash [email protected]][churning [email protected]][[email protected]][enfeebling [email protected]][[email protected]][[email protected]]

or just for having fun you can [earth [email protected]][assassins [email protected]][churning [email protected]][[email protected]][ward of [email protected]][[email protected]][[email protected]][finish him]

MegaVolti · Dec 28, 2008, 02:01 PM // 14:01

I don't really like [[enfeebling blood] that much. Weakness does 66% damage reduction on paper, but damage from attack skills is not reduced. Since enemies have lvl20 or more in their attribute, that bonus damage from attack skills really hurts. They also use them often enough to make a difference. So the theoretical 66% are a lot less effective in the game. That's why I'd take [[ward against melee] over [[enfeebling blood]. I prefer real 50% over fake 66%

[[Stoning] and [[Glowstone] are nice but there are tons of alternatives so there is no need for weakness. Any two PvE skills for example.

Abedeus · Dec 28, 2008, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Quote:

but damage from attack skills is not reduced.

True, but if a foe hits for 60 damage without weakness, it's 20 damage with weakness. It also lowers attributes by 1, making all skills a bit weaker.

Ward against Melee doesn't work on Ranged Damage (Paragon monsters hit hard) and can't be maintaned. It's also static, meaning your frontline OR backline isn't affected. You can't just refresh it, too.

MegaVolti · Dec 28, 2008, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

True, but if a foe hits for 60 damage without weakness, it's 20 damage with weakness. It also lowers attributes by 1, making all skills a bit weaker.

Well, the main question is: How much damage is done by the attack and how much by the skill? I don't know to be honest.

Is it like 100+20, so Weakness will reduce it to 33+18?
Or is it like 20+100, so Weakness will reduce it to 7+95?

This are of cause extreme and probably unrealistic examples. Does anybody know the real (average) monster damage?

Tyla · Dec 28, 2008, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Well, consider that the monsters that are "harder" are often those which are obscenely powerful - most damage from enemies in PvE comes from their autoattacking, but there's no reason not to spec more defense than just EBlood.

MegaVolti · Dec 28, 2008, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Most physicals have at least one attack skill that they can (and will) spam. I don't know what the ration of auto attack to attack skills is but the attack skills make a signifiant part of it.
I always throught auto attack damage is quite low (normal weapon damage scaling with the weapon mastery level which doesn't give that much bonus damage past lvl 12) and skill damage is insanely high (normal skill progression up to lvl 30 which is linear and does not have that dent at lvl 12).

The Meth · Dec 28, 2008, 11:13 PM // 23:13

AFAIK all monster attributes cap at 20, the same as players. If anyone knows differently please show me an example. The reason they hit so hard takes a bit of explaining, but it is primarily armor reducible.

For a level 20 warrior, you effectively negate 5 armor for every point in their weapon mastery up to 12. Past 12, they negate only 2 armor per point. This means a level 20 warrior with 16 axe mastery will hit a 68 armor enemy for full damage. But from what I know, at higher level's this cutoff point raises. I do not know exactly what it is, but if we assume a high leveled warrior has a cutoff much higher then their rank 16 weapon mastery will hit a 80 armor target for full damage. That means suddenly everything but warrior armor is effectively the same as or worse then caster armor would be against a level 20. If we take a very high level monster with 20 axe mastery, well shit, they hit 100 armor characters for full damage. Not having their mastery cut off really enhances their autoattack damage. Remember also that since they are much higher level they generally get far more critical hits (doing automatically max damage and reducing armor by another 20). Then if they decide to use a skill, their warrior strength kicks in and its -20% to your armor. Suddenly even your warrior armor is taking as much damage as they would if they were wearing a paper thin 20 or 40 armor against a level 20, and the other classes are far worse off.

Now, monster skills do scale as well, but its not nearly as dramatic. Rank 20 executioner's strike only gains 10 damage over rank 16, but when you look at the total its a +50 damage, alongside a strength bonus that will probably make the base attack do a +30-40%, ontop of an already insane base damage, and it does become quite a large spike.

For the numbers Megavolti wanted, this is about what I am familiar with seeing (note that these numbers are just made up):
Autoattack damage: 80
Skill damage: 110 + 50
Autoattack (critical) damage: 130
Skill (critical) damage: 160 + 50

So in reality, the skill being used DOES add a lot of damage. However, a large amount of the damage the skill adds is still reducible by enfeebling blood. So a single usage of enfeebling blood is probably about on par if slightly weaker then ward against melee (though it also has an effect on casters and works against ranged damage, but both of those are fairly negligible). If melee is giving you trouble as an earth ele, I personally would be taking Eruption + Assassin's Promise.

Chthon · Dec 29, 2008, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

I do not know exactly what it is, but if we assume a high leveled warrior has a cutoff much higher...

The cutoff above which weapon mastery diminishes from +5 baseline/rank to +2 baseline/rank is (2 + RoundDown(Level/2)).

Also, your explanation was spot-on.

daze · Dec 29, 2008, 04:06 AM // 04:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

I don't really like [[enfeebling blood] that much. Weakness does 66% damage reduction on paper, but damage from attack skills is not reduced. Since enemies have lvl20 or more in their attribute, that bonus damage from attack skills really hurts. They also use them often enough to make a difference. So the theoretical 66% are a lot less effective in the game. That's why I'd take [[ward against melee] over [[enfeebling blood]. I prefer real 50% over fake 66%

[[Stoning] and [[Glowstone] are nice but there are tons of alternatives so there is no need for weakness. Any two PvE skills for example.

I still like having weakness because it serves multiple purposes
1: it does reduce the impact of enemy onslaught if even by a little bit
2: it primes for [[glowstone] which is nice e-management that causes damage
3: it primes for [[stoning] which, yet expensive, is a nice KD spell that causes damage
4: it primes for [[discord] which is a skill that all my heroes take

see how that one skill has 4 uses. I still think its worth it. Whether i stick [[enfeebling blood] on my skill bar or give it to a hero and bind the skill to my keyboard, i think it is a good skill to have. When i run earth, id rather just stick it on my bar just to not make things complicated.

MegaVolti · Dec 29, 2008, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Thanks Meth

That helped a lot.

Skyros · Dec 29, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

I actually prefer fire in HM vanqs.

[Mind Blast][Rodgort's Invocation][Great Dwarf Weapon][You move like a dwarf!][Finish Him!][Ward against melee][Fire Attunement][Death Pact Signet]

Fire Magic 11+1+2
ES 11+1
Earth 8+1
Rest into Resto.

This is what i usually use in HM vanqs. With me I usually have 1-2 melee henchies or heroes and the standard SS + Minions. GDW glued on the frontline + minions + Barbs / Mark of Pain pumps damage. Enfeebling on the necro and i usually take the earth hench. Ward against melee is still useful in melee heavy areas BUT i can drop it a ebon standard and switch my build around whenever.

Starmidder · Jan 01, 2009, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Thought I'd share this for anyone who likes smite tanking and needs to do HM stuff solo with an Ele. It requires a hero with a spell quickening such as [Weapon of Quickening] or [Quickening Zephyr] (I prefer Razah with WoQ and [Balthazar's Spirit] on me for energy because he can then lay defensive spirits as well in case agro breaks). The spell quickening allows for 100% coverage against spells (you can get 3 [Obsidian Flesh] casts off before the first WoQ runs out at 16 communing...more than enough to kill any mob) and 100% coverage for [Shield of Absorption]. Also speeds up the killing because of the fast recharge on the offensive spells.

[build prof=E/Mo energy=6+1 prot=11 earth=12+3+1 weapon=20% enchantment][Obsidian Flesh][Protective Spirit][Spirit Bond][Shield of Absorption][Teinai's Crystals][Crystal Wave][Pain Inverter][Essence Bond][/build]

Depending on the area or situation, the three damage spells can be replaced with anti-interrupt [Glyph of Concentration], anti-KD ["I Am Unstoppable"], or whatever may be needed.

The build obviously has a few flaws such as mass interrupt protection, but for most areas, it works the same or better than 600 tanking with a monk

.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that most of the damage comes from a smiter using the normal 16/16 Signet of Illusion Mesmer.

Jeydra · Jan 02, 2009, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Widest possible number of targets? As long as you aren't in an area where you can't see f*ck all, I do believe it is evident where your enemies are. If it's "dropping an AoE for your Monks", you're really wanting to go Earth and not fire, because it does that job more efficiently.

Again, prioritisation is absolutely simply in PvE. Go for the Monk, or for Monkless mobs go for the hardest hitting enemies. Or in the case of a Nuker, go for the biggest clumps then headbutt your keyboard.

I hope you don't think Fire Magic takes skill though. I seriously do.

Must ... kill ... Monk ... even though ...

1. There's a mob of hostile minions clumped around a friendly target.
2. The Monk is a full aggro bubble behind the rest of his group.
3. Monk just cast Spirit Bond on himself.
4. There's a hard resser around.
5. There are Warriors loose in your team's backline.

Yes, playing a Fire Elementalist in PvE is absurdly easy, you just find the enemy Monk and 1-2-3-4-5 your AoE nukes on him; if your team wipes before the Monk dies, make sure you yell at your team's Monks for being bad, and that AI Monks actually managed to outheal them, and that they should all uninstall Guild Wars, and then ragequit the team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

No. Nonono. Nonononononono. NO!
A 120 damage spell might look good on paper but it usually has a casting time and a cooldown. On average, you can rarely ever cast more then a spell every 3 seconds. Which cuts down the nice looking 120 damage into 40 DPS which is average at best.

Elementalists produce nice shiny numbers in NM, yes. But they lack in DPS, both in HM and in NM. The fact that they are sought in NM as damage dealers actually doesn't speak for GW players. Obviously, the majority is fooled by shiny numbers and DD stereotypes and not able to think about DPS themselves.

Until you consider the fact that the 120 damage spell might actually hit 3 foes or even more, then you will realize that the nice-looking 120 damage really is deadly. If you are so inclined to say Fire Elementalists lack DPS, I challenge you to top 400 kills in Dragon's Throat without a Fire Elementalist.

I fully agree with Pocketmancer. Elementalist damage in NM is impressive, and probably superior to any other kind of damage. You can still play for damage in HM, although you can't quite use mostly Elementalist skills (probably go Assassin's Promise based builds utilizing the Norn Shouts YMLAD! and Finish Him!). Other options for Elementalists in HM include the much-cited Earth Elementalist above, and builds based around Ether Renewal. See #9 for builds, those are quite similar to those I run.